A: I'll just begin it, I'll start it off by just stating your name and the title that you have or the title that you prefer to portray for your employment status.

 

M: So my name is Montaha Hidefi, and I am a colour archaeologist.

 

A: Awesome. Perfect. Would you say that a colour archaeologist is almost like a colour specialist? So it's things that you have to specify, like with colour, just because I'm not too familiar with a colour archaeologist? If you could just expand on that?

 

M: That's a very good question. Actually, a colour archaeologist is something that I came up with because I do a lot of colour forecasting. And so just like an archaeologist, a colour forecaster, or what we do is that we are able to interpret the future. We need to investigate the past and examine it to be able to understand the present, because when you're working with colour, it's not like okay, colours, just, you know, they grow on a lemon tree or something. Yeah, history, right. They have a direction. So we have to understand the past and the present, so we can interpret the future. And that's what colour archaeologists mean. 

 

A: Oh, amazing. Thank you. How long, would you say, you've been a colour archaeologist? For some time now?

 

M: I have been working with colour for a little bit over 15 years. 

 

A: Oh, wow. In your opinion, what are some key skills or requirements that you think attribute to being a colour archaeologist?

 

M: Well, a colour archaeologist or a colour expert or specialist, anyone that works with colour, basically, they have to, first of all, have a very good sight, that means they have to really see. Right? 

 

A: Yeah, I could only imagine like, that's your primary source, whatever you see in front of you,

 

M: Right, that's what you have to do. So the person has to have an eye for detail. And you have to be curious and passionate about colour and understand not only the aesthetics of the colour, but also the science behind it, and understand the history of psychology and symbolism, and how the symbolism fits with the context. Because colour is contextual. That means within each context, the meaning of the colour might change.

 

A: Yeah, from like, demographics to geography, they can be anything right?

 

M: Exactly, it has to do a lot with the culture. And so, obviously, having good sight, you will be able to evaluate the colour visually when you see colour, right? And the eye for detail is very important because it allows you to see the nuances that are happening in the colour direction, right? So you can notice, okay, this is something new, or not new, I have been seeing this for a while this is not anything new. Right. And so also, that helps you understand, for instance, when you have forecasted the colour for next year or for two years down the road, by being able to watch what's happening, you will notice when colour becomes a single trend, or when that colour might appear but it disappears very fast. So then you call it the fad because it didn't make it for too long in the market.

 

A: Yeah, I've seen a lot of how, I know from my personal experience, a lot of people have always had this prejudice around the green, but then there's like a new trend of Sage green, it has been such phenomenal now. So just interesting to see how one colour could have been something that was negatively perceived but now it's a worldwide trend. So, along the lines of colour, archaeologist, specialists, things like that, what's like a typical creative process for you if you're making something or you're discovering something, forecasting?

 

M: Well, usually I am on the watch out all the time, right? So wherever I go, whatever I see on TV, or whatever I see online, I mean, digitally in front of me, I'm looking all the time to see what is it that I have not seen or maybe I have seen like right now I have noticed that your door is blue and your walls are brownish, which is a very interesting combination, unusual, but we are going to see it more and more in the future. So checking. The process usually of any person that is working in colours should be the following. 

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M: Whenever you see something, because the colour does not exist per se, in the middle of nowhere. colour has to do with the context, as I said, but also the product, but also with a story around it. And so it's affected by many things, right? It's affected by political situations, economic situations by societal trends, technology, you know, there are a lot of things that affect the colour. And so you're always watching, you are saving somewhere. You're what you're seeing, right, whether it's digitally or physically, you are saving that information somewhere. So when you're going to do a colour forecast, or you're going to evaluate trends, you have that information handy. So you can always go back to it. Like if someone asked you, oh, we need a colour forecast for tomorrow. Can you tell us what the colour trends are right now? Okay, you might not remember everything, but you might say, okay, let me go to see my notes and I will get back to you. Right. So you go see your notes, you these notes might be pictures, articles, anything. Sometimes you take pictures, I personally take pictures of what I see on TV because if I have forecasted the colour for two years down the road and I see it now that means that colour started appearing already, which is interesting to me. So I have to follow it.

 

A: It's kind of crazy how, colour, just doesn't take a day off. It's always gonna be there no matter what. In your experience, have you found that there are some successful colours and not successful colours that have worked or not? I'm genuinely curious. 

 

M: Actually, when I was reading your question there, I thought that that was an incredibly unique question. I don't recall anyone else before asking me such a question. Because this is very like it has an angle to it. So in my opinion, each colour has its own personality and its own meaning that the culture, the cultural context, basically distills that meaning and that personality to that specific colour. For instance, if we take the bride dress in Western culture, the bride dress is always white, right? It's all about purity, because in the past, well, if you investigate where it came from, it was always related to the virginity of the girl. And so that's why obviously if we go to China, the bride's dress in China is red and then it's called a key Powell. What it symbolizes in China is that symbolizes happiness and prosperity, and good luck. So it has a context and different contexts from what we know, in the Western world. And so if we talk about nowadays, maybe a colour could be qualified, as successful if it is trending for a long period of time because it has been adopted by many products or being demanded by many people in certain demographics. So I'll give you an example of that, for instance, millennial pink, and millennial is not in one colour. millennial pink is the direction of the colour right? And so that was a very successful colour because it was trending for more than five years, and it was related to ageing. narration and another example of a colour that was trending for a long while. 

 

M: Maybe I would like to bring another example of a colour that I have been watching, which is Gen Z yellow. We have been seeing it trending a little bit since maybe 2016 and 2017, that's when it started being called Gen Z yellow. And it was a breakthrough from the millennial thing because Generation Z does not obviously connect with the millennials. And they want to have their own thing. So the so-called Gen Z yellow, marks basically the recognition of this generation, right and so they are creative, they are ready to take the world by storm. So they wander on things. And we have also seen most recently as well, that the colour yellow, a lot of the transgender and gay people they relate themselves with the colour yellow because it's unique, symbolizes them. But I mean, by investigation, you can see they do associate themselves with the yellow. 

"Yellow is not one colour, it is the direction of the colour."

 

A: I don't even know that Gen Z yellow was in. That's very ironic because yellow is my absolute favourite colour and I am a part of Gen Z. That makes so much sense. So going on to more about yellow, do you have any particular thoughts on yellow, whether it be positive or negative? How did you feel about yellow? 

 

M: In general, I personally don't have a specific thing about colour or any other colour, but now we're talking about yellow, it has a significant-it is a significant, I would say, colour. It's very fascinating, because it has so many symbols, and it has so many connotations, or it also has so many connotations through time. So there have always been apparently two groups about yellow, two teams if you want, right. And there has always been this ambivalence about the colour yellow. So sometimes yellow can be Wow, resplendent. Like right now it's because of Pantone's colour of the year there's like a huge buzz about the colour yellow. But some of the time yellows are seen and considered very abrasive, and a very unwanted colour. And so some people like it and admire the colour, and obviously some people, they just can't stand it. I don't know if it has a negative effect on them.

 

A: It's almost like cilantro, either you really like it or you just have it in your genes to not like it. 

 

M: Yes. And so if we go back a little bit to antiquity basically. So a very long time ago, the yellow colour was reserved specifically for women. Okay, so if a man was wearing yellow, he was being considered, degenerate, or feminist or more gay and obviously, that was not acceptable then, many 100 years ago. And so then after that, for many years in Christianity, yellow was associated with the seat, because that's associated with Judas, because in the Last Supper, Judas was wearing yellow. Okay, so because of that yellow was not a trusted colour.

And so having said all this, you can see sometimes yellow was like people were in favour of yellow and some others people were against yellow. And we still have this ambivalence until now. So sometimes it appears and sometimes it disappears

 

A: I did not know there was that much associated with yellow but that is super helpful. Thank you so much. Now in your expertise or your past experience, have you had any positive or negative experiences with yellow when you were forecasting, was it ever a difficult colour or you just had so much fun with it during that time?

 

When you forecast for something like for colour collection for whatever client or for whatever you don't start with the colour usually you start with the drivers you start with the history then it becomes a story and then you pick the colours for a story that the colours will be representing the story and the elements of the story. So usually when I'm forecasting I don't personally think about whether I like this colour or I dislike the colour I think about what colour will go with the story. And so in my personal life, I don't use much yellow, I don't have much yellow in my wardrobe but I do use it when I want to make a bold statement because the yellow pieces that I have are very bold. The yellow is not like you can really hide that. Yeah, so it's I have a bold personality and so when I want to make a bold statement depending on also how I feel I would put a piece of yellow but I don't have a preference for yellow if that's the question. 

 

A: Have you found any particular responses consumers might have when let's say you offer them the colour yellow or you mentioned the colour yellow? Have you seen that there are any connotations when people hear that?

 

M: I mentioned that it's very subjective, the colour yellow some people either like it or some other dislike it but what I have noticed for instance in retail, usually in well before the pandemic, you will pass by stores, whether it's in a mall or separate stores. Most of the time you will see a piece of yellow item in the front either displayed in the window or you know, close to the door whether it's the shoes or it's carpets or handbags or clothing. Mostly you will see a piece of yellow because yellow attracts people you will stop when you see the colour yellow. Remember we said it's a colour of danger and a colour of mobility. So when you see yellow displayed in a shop, people usually stop and that attracts people to walk inside the store even if you don't buy anything. So Brings traffic to the store. Because attention-grabbing it's like a little trigger in your brain because you're just so programmed to think that yellow is associated with like, pay attention.

 

"It's like the sun, it's very much related to light and the sun, it basically drags you and it's an inviting colour even if you dislike it."

 

M: So subconsciously, you are dragged to the sun, and therefore will be dragged to the colour yellow, I don't have information on the neural physiology of it, but in the design industry and retail industry, it's in merchandising, pretty much a very normal, everybody knows about this little detail, colour tactic.

 

A: All right, so going for more of a broad general sense. Have you found that there are some colours that work best with specific demographics, or there are some colours that don't work with specific demographics, let's say like I'll do for an example more of Gen Z, have you found that they had a certain liking to a palette versus another palette, sort of in that sense?

 

M: In my opinion, I think it depends where the colour is going to be utilized, not the colour itself or not themselves, but the intensity of the colour, as we said, Gen Z, yellow has, it's a group of yellows, and the same thing the millennial pink. So it depends on the context where the colour is going to be utilized, it might click with certain demographics, more than other demographics. And here I mean, like age demographic, not geographical demographics, obviously, because that's another story they share with geography. And for example, if you take the kid's demographics, right, so they usually work well with high Chromatic basic colours like yellow, blue, and red. It works very well for kids, and because they are bright, and they help a lot with the learning process. So if you look at kid's toys, they usually use those colours because it works very well with them. And if we take, for instance, the elderly, as you become older, your cornea is changing. So the glass that you have in the cornea basically, starts yellowing. And because of that, as we become much older, we start seeing the colours faded because you are seeing it through this yellowish filter. So for instance, the red is no longer the red, as you see it now, at your age. If you are 80 years old, the red will look more brownish. And so because of that, even though there is a belief in popularly that, for instance, if you go to retirement homes, they have to be painted with pastel colours, because they are soothing or beige colours. And that's actually not true. For the elderly, you need to use, just like the kids, you need to use bright colours, darker, more pronounced colours, so they can see them. So if you want them to recognize certain things, like obviously, I'm not saying that you have to paint the walls in red or something that let's say if they have gadgets that they need to identify most of the time and see, for instance, cups or remote controls or cell phones or those things that they use often those have to really be in very bright colours. And the floors have to be dark because they can distinguish the eye not mentally, that is the eye basically, to distinguish the juxtaposition of colours, so you need to give them those cues for them to see better.

 

A: Oh, interesting. I'm, well, I'm just so floored because I'm learning so many new things. So, in your opinion, are there some fundamentals to consider when you're targeting a consumer, let's say for like, the latest fashion trend, are there some like fundamental keys that you should be thinking of when you're forecasting a colour being as in like, I'm going to be thinking more about like this demographic and how they like this certain thing, so I'm going to be kind of incorporating that into the colours that I'm going to be like exploring more about?

 

M: Yes, definitely this is a big answer, the answer is a big Yes. When you are forecasting, it's not the demographics that you're thinking about. The industry demands the market sector, because the market sector, market segment includes the demographics right. So, first of all, any colour forecast can be general, but you have to be more specific. And the reason for that basically colours usually have a life cycle. And they also have a rhythm, I will explain. So, the life cycle has to do with the industry. For example, if you take the fashion industry, we have four seasons for the fashion industry, so every single season, we will have a fashion show, and then we will have colours put in the market right. And so under the umbrella of fashion now, we have also all the other accessories, you can also have cosmetics, you can nowadays we also put under fashion accessories, we are including the small electronics, portable electronics, all this falls under fashion nowadays. And so in this umbrella segment, the lifecycle is very short, and the rhythm is very fast, which means people are consuming the colour very fast. So when you put together a can forecast for your client, the first thing you need to understand is how that industry works. Is the product being consumed fast or slower? What's the lifecycle of the product itself? And so based on the lifecycle of the product, you will define the lifecycle of the colour basically, that's how we look at it. And so, yes, these are the main fundamentals for targeting consumers if you need to understand what the product is because, again, we go back to what I said at the beginning, colour doesn't exist per se, in the middle of a vacuum. colour is attached to something to an item and that item could be consumed by digesting, all consumed by having it around you.

 

A: That's perfect, sums up exactly what I was looking for. And just to close it off, I just add this question. I'm going to be adding this question for my surveys just because I'm curious as to what's your favourite colour? And why is it that specific colour? 

 

M: Well, you know, some people have a favourite colour, some people have a colour palette, specifically, I had colour favourites, depending on the period of my life. So sometimes those colours have changed. Like when I was in my late 20s, and in my 30s, I was called the lady in red. Maybe you can guess that  I really like the colour red. Because everything I was wearing, every single day, I was wearing something red, from my shoes to my skirts, to my tops to whatever I had a lot of friends and, and that specific period of time I was I wanted to be seen, I was looking for a lot of attention. And I wanted to tell people I am here and I matter. So I was very much into the red. I still am into red but I don't need to wear red every day. But the home, pretty much my surroundings is red, orange and yellow, but mostly red. But later, I turned them to black. It started as a working tool. Because when you're working with colour, and you have to examine colour, and make a decision, you usually have to use a background and usually the background colour, you start you're studying colour. You understand that the background colour has to be gray in a neutral colour, gray, white or, or black. And so when I am inspecting a colour, obviously behind the colour, I'm using white, but what I'm wearing also reflects on the colour that I'm inspecting. And so I don't like to wear gray, I have very few pieces of gray, this piece and maybe another piece, that's all I have in gray, I don't like gray, because to me it is like the lowest of the colours is gray. It tells me a story about a great person who doesn't know if they are this way or that way. They're in the middle of nowhere. So anyway, long story short, white is a colour that gets dirty very easily. So I went into black and I started wearing black. It does not reflect on what I'm looking at and then from using it as a tool or a colourful background. It became like a lifestyle for me. And so then I was called Lady in Black. And so a lot of people know me by wearing black. 

 

A: I completely agree. When I was in my younger years, I was one of the ones who were obsessed with the Tiffany blue trend. That was my absolute favourite colour. And then I feel like that was like a very adolescent thing. So I just like the progression. Those complete all my questions. But if you have any, like final remarks that you'd like to mention, if there's anything you'd like to let me know.

 

M: I just wanted to know what you were working with yellow because you mentioned that in your thesis, is that what you're working on, right? Yes. colour yellow, is there a specific reason why you picked yellow?

A: It's pretty ironic, I originally wanted to do a broader spectrum of colours as a whole in general, although my professor said that it would be super difficult because colour as a whole is such a broad spectrum, which in the sense I was like that sucks but then I understand where she was coming from because like you said each colour has its own connotations, so having to go through all of those colours probably would have been a nightmare for me. My favourite colour, at the moment, is yellow and it's just all around me. It's something that I enjoy and I am curious as to if any different individuals possess the same feelings as me or like they have completely opposite feelings as me so it's more of just a personal preference. 

 

A: Thank you so much for allowing me to get this inside and so good in this is very helpful and I personally really love the colour I've just always found that I have such a strong connotation to colour just cuz for some reason it's always been prevalent in my life I just I always think I see colours differently from people cuz it's something that I just pointed out as well so I'm very grateful for the experience and knowledge.

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M: No worries, anytime.